Curse

MithranArkanere · Nov 28, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I just see all the armors and choose the ones I like most.

No one if forcing you to have that or those.

vdz · Nov 28, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

Yeah. I'm sorry for calling you a twit. You're not an idiot.

And, yes, you may be right, *narcissist is the wrong word to use here. I'll get back to you momentarily on that. Regardless, I still firmly believe that the design philosophy for some of the female armour should be rethought. It's an attempt to give eye candy to the boys so that they don't instead decide to go and play World of Warcraft because World of Warcraft has swimsuit wearing night-elves.

God dammit, what happened to adequate, modest, realistic character design? Did that get flushed down with this obsession with the human body? Specifically the female one.

Do you really think that the female players appreciate these kinds of designs? I'm pretty sure normal women don't go around wearing stuff like that.

Oh ye its *narcissist person* in english, in dutch its *narcist* . Sorry about that one.

The point of realistic, is it ment sarcastic or what? Cause isnt this game all about fantasy?

Most of the armor designs are made by femals so i guess they like them, maybe we should ask Gaile? In reallife females like to look attractive right? Doesnt sound the "uuuh i dont feel attractive today" female sentence familiar? But no ofcourse women wont wear that, but they wear cloths which are seen modern these days and which have the same effect as those ele cloths. Making the person feel attractive, maybe even sexy. I can tell you it works like a magnet on guys.

Since the character is female and you as a player male (i guess) its hard to place yourself in the position as an attractive young woman, cause you as a person aint an attractive young woman (if you are, gimme your number). Maybe you are a guy and like to watch your female ele because you think she looks hot. (which is most often the case) Since they only concist of pixels you can still say they are looking nice/sexy.

I can even mention the doll barby. How do they look? --> Blond, huge lips , big boobs. How does ken look? Muscular, handsome face. They let girls play with these starting at the age of 4! And then when they are 25 they correct there boobs cause they arent that great as one of there barby dolls, which is seen as the "perfect" body.

Relambrien · Nov 28, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Meh, two arguments going on right now, one about male/female characters and another about armor...

On the males playing female characters argument, listen to this. If you're going to look at a character's butt (standard camera angle) for 30+ hours, would you rather it be a man's or a woman's? I don't think I need to say much else about that.

On the original debate of armor, I agree with the general idea that there are too many "roles" armor seems to be forced to fit in. If it was more generalized, there would be more options available for the Anet art team, and we could see some refreshing new styles of armor in the future.

a_ndy · Nov 28, 2006, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

That wasn't what I was implying you narcissistic twit. I meant that the female designs for the elementalist armour wasn't bloody modest. I don't want to see your damn underwear through your thin see-through skirt, damnit.

Now now, let's try to keep things civil...

In any case, I don't really see a problem with there being immodest Female Elementalist armors. Perhaps you don't want to look at them, but there are people that do. Part of Guild Wars being a massivley multiplayer game is dealing with what other people want to do with / wear on their own characters. Surely the thing that a person should be most concerned with when customizing the appearance of their own character is their own preferences and not what others around them think of their style.

I'm not asking anyone to "unskankify" the armors, or get rid of any of the existing armors (not that it would happen even if we did want it). I'm asking for some variety in the kinds of armors we can get. Not just in "skanky/unskanky" but in other more broad ways as well - loose fitting versus tight fitting, cloth versus leather versus metal... etc. The armors that exist for the Female Elementalist might appeal to some people, but if they all follow the same model they become redundant, uncreative, and eventually unappealing.

In vdz's defense, I don't really see any indication in his post of him being a narcissist, and even if he is... well... we all have a little egoist in us anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedd Kun

Indeed. Think about the Factions 15k for Warriors. Try to walk in a end-game city in Factions, 50% of the people you'll see are Warriors with 15k armor.
We need more expencive armors, so you can feel that your armor is unique...!

I don't really see anything wrong with how things are now. I'd advocate more variety, but not necessarily making armors harder to get. To be honest, I think if you set the bar too high, it's a little frustrating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoalaMeatPie

Why Would I want to look at a "guy" for hours on end?

I don't think that anyone implied that you would want to look at a guy for hours on end. And if you prefer to look at a female character, that's everyone's choice. I personally prefer male characters (not that I don't have a female character or two) because I find it kind of an oddity to spend hours on end looking at myself prancing around as the opposite sex.

I'm not asking them to take out the provocative armors that you like, I'm asking them to mix it up a little. And all this aside, they still do a poor job of adapting armors for male elementalists. Don't people that prefer to play as a more representative avatar deserve the same quality as those who prefer to play as the opposite gender?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoalaMeatPie

You have 26 different possibilkites for the Chest, 26 possibilities for theArms, 26 for the legs, and 26 for the Feet.

26x 26 x 26 x 26, (26^4) Thats 456,976 Different armor combinations.

This is a faulty use of logic. Almost every person in the game who owns armor wears a complete set of a unified skin - and there is a good reason for this... they are meant to be worn as so.

Despite my ramblings about adherence to a particular model, the armors are distinct enough that they tend not to match well with each other. Either the shapes of the designs are at odds with one another or the colours do not dye the same way - or the correct portions of the armor refuse to dye.

For instance armor A is purple/gold and armor B is red/yellow. Even if you dye both the armors black you may end up with one part purple/black and the other part black/yellow. This hardly makes for a viable armor combination unless you fancy yourself as a carnival character.

This is not to say that there are not armor combinations that work, and in fact look better than any full set individually - there are, and I have seen some. But for the most part, mixing and matching makes characters look like shambling horrors. If there are more than 26 combinations, there are certainly very few more.

Additionally, the numbers you are talking about are completely ridiculous. You have multiplied out every possible permutation of armor combining... however, this implies that a real person could and would actually combine gloves, a chestpiece, leggings, and boots from four different armors. I'm trying to picture it in my head, and it can only make me chuckle.

Perhaps your idea would have a stronger standing (though still not the enormous number that you suggested) if we could dye all parts of the armor. For example if armor colouring was broken down into Colour 1/Colour 2 so that when we applied dyes we had the opportunity to affect Colour 1 or Colour 2, mixing and matching would be more viable. Then if you had your Purple/Gold armor and your Red/Yellow armor you could apply Black dye to Colour 1 of the first and second pieces followed by Red on Colour 2 of the first piece. Then you would end up with Black/Red and Red/Black. Even then, the same dye does not apply uniformly to all armors. Red might mean maroon for one armor set, and pink for another.

The point is the range of viable armor combinations is not 26^4 as you would suggest, but more in the range of ~26 as most people accept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

God dammit, what happened to adequate, modest, realistic character design? Did that get flushed down with this obsession with the human body? Specifically the female one.

It's only natural for games, movies, and media to exaggerate. People want to watch and play what they're not in real life: heroes with amazing powers, wizards with fantastic magic, men and women with incredible figures. It's just the way things are. Who's to say that "modest, realistic" character design has ever existed in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

Do you really think that the female players appreciate these kinds of designs? I'm pretty sure normal women don't go around wearing stuff like that.

Actually I do know women that play GuildWars that do like the shapely figures of their characters. Of course, they'd never wear things like that on the street, but they certainly understand why they're attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris616263

Hey here's an idea; I don't like how rap music depicts women. Let's go to 50 cent's mansion and bang on his front gate and scream complaints at him. I don't like how TV shows depict women; let's all go to Hollywood and complain.

I'm sure there are people that do. And no doubt they have every right to.

In any case, I hope that you guys will stop flinging insults back and forth. I started this thread not to disparage people's personal preferences, or to pass judgement on whether it is right or wrong to play a female character. These things are all up to the decision of the player. What I hoped to discuss here are limitations that are arising in the types of armors that are being rolled out in GuildWars and the ways that they can and perhaps should be addressed.

I fully recognize that there are male players that prefer to play women. That's fine. I also recognize that many if not most people think some of the more immodest armor styles look great. That's fine too. What I'm saying is that not every armor has to look this way - and certainly if Necris has proven anything it's that it doesn't appeal to everyone. Even if it did appeal to everyone, there are only so many times that the same idea can be recycled. I personally think the "barely a cloth" Nightfall elementalist armors are sorely lacking in creativity, and in fact accentuate some of the oddities of the character proportions in comparison to normal people. Regardless, people who prefer male characters deserve the same attention to the quality of their armors as those who prefer to generate female characters.

KoalaMeatPie · Nov 28, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Necris... You're just incredible.

"Woman distract me When i try to pay attention in math class" A few lines later, "Am i the only 19 year old who deson't think with there penis?"

Hipocrit.

You need to get laid and get over it. Seriously.

Remember, ANIMATED PIXELS.

I can't beleive that that Is SUCh a distraction for you that you would want to see it stricken from the game, I mean, after all, you "don't think with your penis" You are a real Prude.

Want to know What I think? I think that the only reason you want that out of the game is because you enver had a real girlfriend, and every time you see Animated Females in skimpy outfits its slap in the face for you. either that your your christian to the next level and can't stand to see skin.

Welcome to the 2000s, don't open the TV or go outside, you might be shocked.

Honest Question, Necris, Andy, What do you guys think of the bikini, Honest question, honest answer.

Women going around in their underwear on the beach, Water dripping off of them.

Warrior Of The Toon · Nov 28, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Your forgot to mention male paragon armour... You can choose between a tight fitting breastplate and skirt, a tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt, a... uh... tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt with little bits of old ornaments stuck on both sections or... a tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt, both with lots of bits of ornaments on them! Oh the agonising choice!

MithranArkanere · Nov 28, 2006, 11:43 PM // 23:43

I know real women that play GW, I don't care that you believe that or not, but I know that like I know that I'm breating. And all of them love most Female armor sets.

Classes must have a line of desing, why? Because they are classes. You can notice a class just by thir look, without selecting them.
No matter which armor they use, you can say an Elementalist is an elementalist.

That was meant to be like that.

There are some basis in this game you can't touch.

It's like saying... hm... now I want to get to lvl 100, get enough attribute points to get everything to 12, etc...

a_ndy · Nov 28, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoalaMeatPie

Remember, ANIMATED PIXELS.

If that's really the case, I don't really see why there is a big distinction between staring at a guy or girl for hours on end. Animated pixels, right?

To be honest, male or female character just comes down to preference. Some may say, "I feel awkward staring at a guy walking around my screen." That's fine... although you do it all the time when watching male heroes in movies I'm sure. I personally tend to identify my character as my avatar in the game world, and attached to me in that way. Thus I prefer to play a character that is more representative of myself, though idealized.

Quote:

Honest Question, Necris, Andy, What do you guys think of the bikini, Honest question, honest answer.

Women going around in their underwear on the beach, Water dripping off of them.

Bikinis are hot. And hot women in bikinis are hot. Though just because a person doesn't feel the need to drool over every woman walking by doesn't mean he doesn't have a libido, or a pulse.

In any case, I'm a little at odds with why you would address this question to me anyways. The last time I checked I wasn't campaigning against skimpy clothing in Guild Wars, I just deconstructed your argument about how many armors were really available and said that there should be more options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Of The Toon

Your forgot to mention male paragon armour... You can choose between a tight fitting breastplate and skirt, a tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt, a... uh... tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt with little bits of old ornaments stuck on both sections or... a tight fitting breastplate with coloured nipples and skirt, both with lots of bits of ornaments on them! Oh the agonising choice!

I like this guy. He's added wit to my point. xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Classes must have a line of desing, why? Because they are classes. You can notice a class just by thir look, without selecting them.
No matter which armor they use, you can say an Elementalist is an elementalist.

That was meant to be like that.

There are some basis in this game you can't touch.

Even if this is true, the line of design should be attractive to begin with. I think it's safe to say that there are precious few who will argue that the male elementalist "line of design" looks good. If that's the case, why should all future armors be limited in this way? So that we can recognize a male elementalist when we see him? I don't think that's worth it. I'd rather not be able to recognize a male elementalist the first time I see his new armor and go "Oh, that's cool... I wonder what class that is?" After that, I would know.

But that aside, it's not always true that you can recognize classes right off the bat. I'd argue that you can tell what class somebody is because you've seen those armors before. The first time I saw Necromancer Fissure Armor, I didn't know what class it was... but now it's hard to understand how I could have been unsure. The point is, it can be hard to figure out what class is what with new armor. Is that really a big deal? Not particularly. First of all, in most outposts the class appears above a character's head. Secondly you can always click on them to find out. Did I know when I saw Master of Whispers that he was a Necromancer right off the bat? Not really. But did I say "Oh my, he doesn't look like a standard necromancer, they can't do that! That's something about the game they can't change!" No sir. Master of Whispers is unique as a Necromancer because his design doesn't follow the usual archetype or "line of design" and I like that just fine.

Cineris · Nov 29, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Well, for what I feel is the general thrust of this thread -- That while many choices of armors are nice, the insistence upon certain "themes" for armors of a particular class pigeonholes players into a visual style they might not necessarily like -- I agree.

Lack of any modest clothing options in the Prophecies campaign was one of the primary reasons I did not create an Elementalist as my first character in Prophecies. This isn't just an issue with armors either -- I don't see why virtually every necromancer must look like a vampire/goth. I'm rather partial to the idea of the necromancer-as-scholar approach, rather than wearing the fact that you like to play with the dark arts on your sleeve. The serious lack of good Monk hairstyles in Prophecies led virtually every monk to use the same style... Well, I can go on and on about physical differences, but back to armor...

Why is all Elementalist headgear a floating "aura"? Why can't the Elementalist have a mask, and vice versa for the Mesmer? Why can't these classes utilize Ranger masks or Monk scalp designs? It's understandable that there might be some difficulties with more substantial headgear (that is, anything that's an actual helmet and not just a floating emitter or a few polygons or a texture) but it seems like there's potential for expansion. Though I can understand the mindset of wanting to keep a firm hold on available style options for characters to make sure that the visual coherence of Guild Wars isn't lost, more options for players is, in my opinion, better long-term.

Kai Nui · Nov 29, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Andy (the OP) makes a good point, and I have to agree. Although the classes should follow a certain type of pattern, I do think that it's follwed too narrowmindedly. It's pretty much a worthless idea to think that tyrians and canthans looks so similar in their armors save a few. I mean do american farmers with their overalls and boots look anything like the chinese farmers with the huge hats and sandals? No, not really, and that's probably a wrong stereotype, but that's not the point I'm making here. I mean you travel to a foreign land, the armors should be noticeably different. All I'm seeing is just more variety but no distinction that makes it uniquely all their own. I can see the frustration the OP has, as I can't find any good male mesmer armor. I do have to say there are some good things out there, but it's mostly all too similar.

Chris616263 · Nov 29, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_ndy

I'm sure there are people that do. And no doubt they have every right to.

Such is the freedom of speech. But also; it is the freedom of speech that allows people to say whatever they want on music that they make; so people complaining about rap music is futile. It's also our laws that allows Anet to do whatever the hell they want within reason. Seeing women in skimpy clothes and guys in fruity clothes isn't going to damage you. Complaining about the male/female armor is futile. Don't like it? Make a female warrior. They have lots of un-skimpy yet beautiful (by beautiful I mean Kurzick) armor.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

I like my male elly armour!

I guess its a matter of opinion though. I think all the classes have a diverse range of armours and that there is deffinately something there to suit all tastes.

a_ndy · Nov 29, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I guess its a matter of opinion though. I think all the classes have a diverse range of armours and that there is deffinately something there to suit all tastes.

I did say that there were no doubt people out there that did like some of the current male elementalist designs (including the people that designed them, I'm sure). But the whole point of this thread is that the range of armors is not diverse enough (and in fact is too restricted in the ways that they are conceived of) to suit all tastes, as you say.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Well how many armour types do want them to make? I'm sure the number they've included already are plenty, and there will be more in each new game.

You have seen the screenshots of all the current armour types on wiki right? Heck im sure that several of the male ones look better then the female ones. Do you expect males to walk around wearing skirts and open blouses?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Elementalist_armor

There is a very diverse range between each chapter, The nightfall armours especially are the best ones yet. Im sure it will only get better in each new chapter.

Horseman Of War · Nov 29, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

well isnt this a touchy little subject...

Im actually having Deja-Vu from about 6 months ago when this exact same thread was up.

So... rather than give my opinion on it (which will piss off the OP) ill leave you with this thought:

Its a freaking video game.

You dont like the armor??? Draw some up, and submit them to ANet. If thats not good enough- there are plenty of other video games with other armors out there. Go play mechwarrior or something.

a_ndy · Nov 29, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Well how many armour types do want them to make? I'm sure the number they've included already are plenty, and there will be more in each new game.

You have seen the screenshots of all the current armour types on wiki right? Heck im sure that several of the male ones look better then the female ones. Do you expect males to walk around wearing skirts and open blouses?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Elementalist_armor

There is a very diverse range between each chapter, The nightfall armours especially are the best ones yet. Im sure it will only get better in each new chapter.

The problem is not the number of armors available... I'm sure I have made clear that I think the system of armor acquisition in Guild Wars works fine.

The problem is the limits to armor design. You might think that the elementalist armors show a wide range of diversity, and from one perspective they do. But all male elementalist armors adhere to the tight pants, skinniness-accentuated look no matter which campaign you look in. And I'm only using male elementalist because I find that the largest number of people find it disagreeable (not to say that some don't like it, and there's nothing wrong with that either).

As for Nightfall armors being the best yet, I think that Nightfall armors just prove how thinly the archetypes that GuildWars is devoted to are stretched. The Elite Sunspear male elementalist armor really does look all poufy "skirt and open-blouse" like and the primeval 15k elementalist armor looks like a someone took a straight run of their rusty fence and bent it around themself. Again, there might be people that like this... but all of these armors are centralized around a particular shape and form imo, which doesn't appeal to me personally. They could make another 50 armors using the same "line of design" as one contributor called it, and I still wouldn't like it. The problem is not the number, but the adherence to such a tight and limited plane for design creativity. Then you end up with things like: "How can I add some spice to the typical skinny guy elementalist look? Well, what if I bent a fence around him?"

Sure it's something original, but a better solution would be, "Maybe it's time to design an armor that looks beyond the skin-hugging look of the 25 we've designed before."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman Of War

Its a freaking video game.

You dont like the armor??? Draw some up, and submit them to ANet. If thats not good enough- there are plenty of other video games with other armors out there. Go play mechwarrior or something.

Videogames are no less deserving of opinions than anything else in life.

Just because I'm not an expert at doing something doesn't mean I can't evaluate the results of its execution. I'm not trying to disparrage the creative team of ArenaNet, I think that it is a fantastic game with some great features and mechanics - this is the reason that it will continue to appeal to me and I don't run off and play something else.

What I am doing is expounding what I see as weaknesses in the current direction or armor design. This in a way, is better than drawing something up and submitting it to ArenaNet because if it was actually taken to heart, it would potentially add new life to the designs of legimtimate artists with the skills and knowledge to make these ideas take flight.

As for drawing something and submitting it to ArenaNet... I could do that, but it would likely be taken even less seriously than this thread, since ArenaNet actively discourages unsolicited opinions, and in fact leaves no official means of submitting them aside from fan forums.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Exactly as horseman said, unless you can design better armours yourself you dont have much point complaining against the armour types there are. Ive seen lots of nice armours for each class and were spoilt for choice when I saved up for my 15k elly armour as both the kurzick and canthan ones were brilliant.

I also have a rit and monk, and the armours available for them are fantastic, but I'll never be able to afford another 2 sets of 15k armour.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Although I admit the primeval armour is terrible. The 5k and 10k ones are very nice, but the 15k one is trash imo, but some people might like it.

Its been said before, but this is a game created by game designers. They have put a lot of effort into the armour designs and unless you (or I, dont mean to be be pointing the finger), can make anything better, they're going to go with the best that their designers can make. The only way to make it any better if you really want to is to design your own armour and submit it. I dont see how complaining against what they already have is going to solve anything, as it doesnt. Its not like the armour is flawed, or its bugged, its just the designs that the artists made.

a_ndy · Nov 29, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The only way to make it any better if you really want to is to design your own armour and submit it. I dont see how complaining against what they already have is going to solve anything, as it doesnt. Its not like the armour is flawed, or its bugged, its just the designs that the artists made.

Right, I agree they are the designs that the artists made. I'm not trying to unleash some unrestricted gripe-fest. There are definitely a lot of nice armors in the game. What I am saying is that as things have been going, ArenaNet has been limiting themselves to a very fixed pattern of styles: Diversity within narrow boundaries.

Pointing towards what we already have is only a means of illustrating directions that can be taken in the future - which can promote changes which therein do solve problems, or as I have preferred, break the boundaries that currently exist.

It is possible ArenaNet does not even recognize the boundaries that they have been confining themselves to. Or perhaps they do, but have chosen to abide by them for one reason or another. But either way, thoughtful discussion can promote them to re-evaluate the current model and maybe even consider whether or not it might be worthwhile to change it.

kazjun · Nov 29, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Um, more skanky female ele armours please

On the otherhand, I like male warrior armour that is more full coverage. Nightfall is good that their primeval helm is solid with no gaps to the armour. All the other armours (even kurzick and plate) leave an annoying fleshy gap that as a warrior I'd rather not have. Have it as a chain coif or something, but just leaving it open like that annoys me. I'd like any other future male armours to follow this trend, but without looking like a freak. The body and leggings on the primeval are nice but the spikes just don't look cool. For me, male warrior armour is pretty much 1.5, 15k kurzick and plate. Everything else is bleh. Oh, and don't even get me started on the necro primeval...
Would look good for halloween but otherwise, just no for me.